Curse

stumpy · Aug 18, 2005, 08:06 PM // 20:06

So we have many types of people and guilds in this game. Obvious. It hosts millions of people from all over the world. I have a question regarding competative pvp players ... the templates here are creative at best, most builds I see shared are numing pve builds. Do guilds and players purposely chose not to share any common knowledge on these forums for fear of losing? I mean there are many different common knowledge builds, like SS, Healing Ball, ex-Enchantment heavy, the spike builds, but why is it nobody actually like to discuss actuall builds here?

Observant players know what they are hitting and what the targets are using, alot of people from guru ARE without a doubt some of the top players in the game ... why is it that we don't try and share many builds. I mean we (our guild has many) which we like to test and would love for others to test out (and possibly improve), why do we not see any of this here? Looking through all forums I only see solo build help requested. I don't get it, <sarcasm> am I only to use an elite fansite for complaining? </sarcasm>

I just want to hear opinions from the active members here, you know who you are, we have shared many threads together before ... and I would actually like to know if this could be feasible in the future of guru.

(Anti Flame. Stance. For the next 8 posts, all flames will be disregarded and you gain 1 additional ignore per flame

)

aLittle Bird · Aug 18, 2005, 08:19 PM // 20:19

not sure about Tombs, but I know that my guild has posted plenty of videos over on TGH of GvG fights.

It has been a double edge sword for us, the name recognition is kinda cool and having opponents more prepared for our build has many times given us much more challenging fights than we might have otherwise received. However it has also definitely cost us a few big point losses as we met teams with builds specifically tweeked to beat our type of build.

We decided a while back to slow down on the public video releases of GvG fights and just keep em for internal review purposes only.

I expect that you would have more luck by starting a thread where all the major builds for Tombs were named and broad brush outlined rather than hoping for exact detail on each.

wheel · Aug 18, 2005, 09:31 PM // 21:31

yes, BBQ has posted some great GvG videos. I love them. try searching this and TGH for some videos and you can see them in action. as for people posting builds, they aren't going to post their exact builds in detail until everyone is already using them. and then it's fairly pointless. you can, though, search and learn on your own without receiving builds on a silver platter. your best bet is to play gvg and watch each team closely as to what skills they're using. especially the teams that beat you down with ease.

Calnaion Blackhawk · Aug 18, 2005, 09:33 PM // 21:33

yes we have a strategy which works VERY well in tombs and we plan on keeping it for our own as long as possible, hence out guild is hard to get into, need VERY trusting members...

Scaphism · Aug 18, 2005, 10:42 PM // 22:42

Quote:

Originally Posted by stumpy

It hosts millions of people from all over the world.

No it doesn't.

People are slow to share builds they win with for fear of not winning as much. I wouldn't label that a problem. It slows down the metagame development, sure, but that doesn't make it a problem on its own.

As for which are the good guilds, I turned to a higher source.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Magic 8 Ball

Answer Unclear. Try again later.

Whoops.

Seriously though, some of the highly ranked GvG guilds have quit it protest and I'd guess that many, if not most, have lost members. The major reason I hear repeated is a percieved lack of response on balance issues.
Tombs is a cesspool.
Observer mode would be a big help in identifying the better guilds, giving them publicity (and a greater reward for playing well) and would allow people to pick apart the builds from captured videos.
Still, observer mode is a nice *feature*, but it's a band-aid on a gaping wound, as a fellow guildmate put it. Balance issues need to be addressed first, in a hurry. Unlocks need to happen a faster rate to keep people interested at the beginning stages of PVP, and more maps/styles of gameplay need to be introduced into the PVP. None of these are new issues, and that's what really has me concerned- I'm not involved in the test, but if the developers don't know about these problems yet we're in really big trouble.

I'm confident they do know what the problems are and they are most likely addressing them to the best of their ability. What worries me is that they've likely known for a long time and the problems still remain. On top of that we only get bits and pieces of information due to the way their PR/Marketing is run. Having a limited number of people disclosing information lets you regulate more tightly at the expense of expediency. "Being left in the cold" makes players (especially forumites) anxious. That's hardly earthshaking news, but we're still cold.

Aniewiel · Aug 18, 2005, 11:20 PM // 23:20

If anyone would flame you, Stumpy, they're out of their minds.

This is exactly the type of stuff that this site DOES need. That's actually what a community is and I'm glad you've brought it up.

Maybe what's needed is some sort of forum for team builds rather than just individual, single player builds? I can see why some guilds/teams would be hesitant to post on the forum for builds that -is- provided.

There's probably also hesitancy due to groups wanting to keep team dynamics secret so that they can keep winning. That's where observer mode will make sharing automatic.

But I think that your suggestion is terrific. Thanks!

stumpy · Aug 18, 2005, 11:27 PM // 23:27

I understand that guilds are likely to not reveal there secret (oh noes you mean I can't play the cookie cutter builds) ... which guilds will have to get used to when your on stage. I can't wait for observer mode, I can't wait to be on TV

.

Yes S, I am sure they know about the concerns that many have grieved and pleaded about. But many will likely be ignored from there lack of presentation. I have seen a previous post from you addressing concerns of balancing certain skills, and stregthening weaker skillsets. I do believe that they will introduce more maps, after all, they won't sit in a stalemate.

BBQ guild (and specifically a littlebird) I will check the guild hall. Other members of my guild represent us there. On this forum I tend to see many (Im a superman, I can r0xx0r n00bs with my 1337 mad skillz0rs) <<--- ????

but nothing, short of the Zerg Rush which really was one of the only videos that utilized a team with a strategy. Not crap like ... hers a video of me and my friends kickin some asses have fun good music ... that kinda stuff I wish people would share on there on computer or own guild. I like discussing strategy, or finding useless skills and realizing how beneficial it could be in 'type A' strategy.

I don't want to write about what Anet needs to address here S, I want to know if this forum has any interest in promoting and actually strategizing builds, like the guild BBQ has done in the past (going on trust) ... I understand that revealing the information will allow others to break it down and build counters ... but if you came up with the build, I'm sure you can counter the counter. I just want a place to share some strategizing, with outsiders who have a different perspective than me, who can see things that I can't ... and most importantly ... who enjoy doing this as much as me.

EDIT ***** and wheel ... I am not looking for a silver platter. I have been an active member here much longer than yourself. I am looking to strategize with intelligent people, not complain to Anet why I need my next meal cooked for me. But I do thank you for the assumption ... I'd sooner reveal everything I know to hear 1 insightful person give me credible feedback to help me improve my team builds (no matter if I target them to tourney style or GvG).

aphex twin · Aug 18, 2005, 11:45 PM // 23:45

Best way to find out what the top guilds are using as their build is to keep GvGing and HoHing. It seems everyone in HoH runs the same builds so it is best to play more GvG and then you will learn by yourself why their build is so solid.

Sometimes you will be surprised at how well your guild's team build works against a much higher ranked team...and sometimes you get completely owned in a few mins. When you do get owned ask your team why that happened.

Scaphism · Aug 19, 2005, 12:01 AM // 00:01

I'm not here to turn it into another complaint thread- I started out addressing the question:

Quote:

Originally Posted by Stumpy

Do guilds and players purposely chose not to share any common knowledge on these forums for fear of losing? I mean there are many different common knowledge builds, like SS, Healing Ball, ex-Enchantment heavy, the spike builds, but why is it nobody actually like to discuss actuall builds here?

First of all, you should try posting in the Gladiator's Arena if you want a strategy discussion, or The Campfire if you want to discuss an actual build. Adding a separate section for "Group Builds" to the campfire is a good suggestion, I'll bring that to the rest of the staff, but as Ensign and I tend to oversee those two forums we can make it happen.

As for the question at hand, maybe I should have countered with another question: Why do you think it's a problem that people don't share group builds more often? (I do think it's a problem, and a great guy I met in GW who was a tester was all for full disclosure of builds. Some of you lucky people may remember Sausaletus Rex.) But why do you think it's a problem?

I tried to explain why more information isn't shared by the good guilds

Lack of reward for disclosing
Fear of increased losses due to disclosure
They don't post on forums
They don't play the game anymore

That's a partial list of reasons, which I addressed briefly in the post. The last reason: "They don't play anymore" leads to the question "Why don't they play anymore" which requires a brief explanation of what drove good teams away. That's intended to be an objective list of the reasons I've heard and experienced, not an invitation to begin the griping anew.

I agree that the lack of strategy talk is dissapointing. Guru was created with the intent of being the place to look for highbrow discussion, not lowest-common-denominator garbage. An effort to improve the quality of our site is likely to get my approval.

wheel · Aug 19, 2005, 12:01 AM // 00:01

There ARE good builds out there that have been posted, they're just buried under hoardes of useless threads, posts, and questions. I didn't mean the silver platter comment to be as harsh as it came out to be, but the reason that good builds aren't posted is because of the following reasons

Teams don't want to stop winning
The time that teams spent developing their builds would go to waste if they put out all of their builds out for everyone to read and copy instantly
The builds that they're using in part can probably already be found, so there's no point in making even more obvious for the competition to realize what's going on in winning builds.

It's fairly obvious why more winning builds aren't posted. It's not like PvE where there's no player or guild rank situation. Your build and its exclusivity directly affects your position on the ladder.

EDIT: Scaphism basically summed up what I meant in this and my OP.

stumpy · Aug 19, 2005, 12:07 AM // 00:07

Quote:

Originally Posted by aphex twin

Best way to find out what the top guilds are using as their build is to keep GvGing and HoHing. It seems everyone in HoH runs the same builds so it is best to play more GvG and then you will learn by yourself why their build is so solid.

Sometimes you will be surprised at how well your guild's team build works against a much higher ranked team...and sometimes you get completely owned in a few mins. When you do get owned ask your team why that happened.

we do do this when we get owned. We stop and say 'okay guys what happened there?' sometimes we can find some ideas through this, and sometimes we simply get owned because we ran into a good counter, when the dice roll your way, it really does roll your way. But sometimes you run right into a brick wall with no avail. I (realize and always will realize ... know your opponent, and watch whats going on will always be the best strategy)

IlikeGW · Aug 19, 2005, 12:48 AM // 00:48

The field is too small to post stuff online. In betas there were enough people playing (and enough openness in the game's structure to make new builds easily) that it wasn't a problem, but to post your own discoveries now is akin to asking who will come and give you a free butt kicking. Or if it's something to do with soloing, asking Anet to nerf you.

Scaphism · Aug 19, 2005, 12:57 AM // 00:57

Quote:

Originally Posted by IlikeGW

In betas there were enough people playing (and enough openness in the game's structure to make new builds easily) that it wasn't a problem,

Good point. It's so ingrained now that I just assumed this would be understood. The lack of ability to create diverse builds on the fly severely cramps aspiring build designers. Not as much of an issue for top guilds who have most skills unlocked (after many hours of playing), but every time a new player sees a skill and says "Damn! I want to put that in my next build!" and realizes he wont get it til the last 10% of the game, a fairy dies.

Tuna · Aug 19, 2005, 01:27 AM // 01:27

I stand in the middle on the issue of sharing 8 man builds. A signifigant portion of the skill in this game comes from being able to create a succesfull GvG or tombs build. Giving them away seems kind of like a slap in the face to the creator. However, if the creator wants to post it thats wonderful. I think discussing a complete build on the forums could spur some interesting thoughts and move away from some of the drivel thats going around the strat forums now. I cringe at realizing that I'm going to have to say 'NR throws this thing into the trash pile' for the vast majority of the builds though

Vermilion Okeanos · Aug 19, 2005, 02:23 AM // 02:23

Well, some people don't like to see their build getting copy all over the place.
While some other people don't like their build known and counter all over the place.

It is just that simple...

It had already been done in the past, and of course it will continue in the future.

That was why so many technology human had in the past are actually lost and had to be discover again.
Just to give more edge to the existing people of that time.

(personally I dislike making up an 8 man build... I would much rather having a huge list of available combo that can be put inside a build for different purpose... it is a much more efficient way to build and to analyse the current build, and know how to fix it.)

Aug 19, 2005, 02:54 AM // 02:54

Would this be a good time to reveal the last GvG build we really ran?(the one from a couple of weeks ago)

Kaylee Ann · Aug 19, 2005, 03:23 AM // 03:23

Quote:

Originally Posted by Blackace

Would this be a good time to reveal the last GvG build we really ran?(the one from a couple of weeks ago)

I thought we were talking about top guilds here?

<3 Blackace

Tuna · Aug 19, 2005, 03:28 AM // 03:28

I think it would be more interesting to look at builds from average guilds and try to fine tune them However, an iQ build would be interesting to see how you guys incorperate different elements etc.

Aug 19, 2005, 03:51 AM // 03:51

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kaylee Ann

I thought we were talking about top guilds here?

<3 Blackace

Interestingly enough the last time we played that build your guild beat it. Wow we must be sucking if we lost to you

Quote:

Originally Posted by Tuna

I think it would be more interesting to look at builds from average guilds and try to fine tune them However, an iQ build would be interesting to see how you guys incorperate different elements etc.

It wasn't some outrageous build, but it was fun while it lasted. I'll wait for Ensign to chime in and see what he says about it.

Kaylee Ann · Aug 19, 2005, 04:08 AM // 04:08

Quote:

Originally Posted by Blackace

Interestingly enough the last time we played that build your guild beat it. Wow we must be sucking if we lost to you

It wasn't some outrageous build, but it was fun while it lasted. I'll wait for Ensign to chime in and see what he says about it.

Yeah, I was in LoG at the time or something like that. Problem is they <3 E/Mo smite, and since I was in EA, a guild that ran E/Mo smite from day one of release, I couldn't handle it anymore. It was fun doing it when no one had a clue except the people from beta and alpha, but now it is just an anoyance. EA has been long gone, but hO picked up all of the remaining players from EA, so I roll with them now.

I miss EA =( Inactivity has smashed this game into stupidity....